Being woman in business- An interview with Ronald Riggio Ph.D.
Some things about the author:
As we can read at the website Ronald E. Riggio, Ph. D., is the Henry R. Kravis Professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and former Director of the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College. Professor Riggio is the author of over 100 books, book chapters and research articles in the areas of leadership, assessment centers, organizational psychology and social psychology. He is an Associate Editor of The Leadership Quarterly, and is on the Editorial Boards of Leadership, Leadership Review, Group Dynamics and the Journal of Nonverbal Behavior and he was the originator of the Shoptalk Column at the Los Angeles Times, a Q&A column dealing with workplace problems/issues.
Interviewing him for the article What is Holding Women Back from Success in Business, I had a great opportunity to ask him about a major issue that is still very contradictory even in our contemporary societies: The women in the workplace and the way they are treated with important factor their gender. Below there is a list of questions that I found interesting and intriguing, I had the chance and I wanted them to be answered by an expert in the field.
Q1. How did it come and you analyzed the social issue: woman and career (according to your article)?
A: There is quite a bit of research on discrimination against women in the workplace, so this is a very important topic. Women are particularly discriminated against in higher-level positions in business and government – areas that have been traditionally dominated by men.
Q2. Why, according to surveys, percentage of women promoted at professions higher in hierarchy is less than men’s?
A: There is a well-known study called, “Think Leader, Think Male” which found that when people rate leaders they tend to use the same descriptors that they use for men – Assertive, achieving, dominant, etc. So, if you are looking to promote someone to a leadership position, most people have a male (or at least masculine characteristics) in mind. Although this is not the only factor (there are many) that lead to discrimination. It explains why there is more discrimination in high-level, rather than lower-level, positions.
Q3. In your opinion, why the percentage of the women interested in professions higher in hierarchy is less than the men’s?
A: Women buy into the stereotype just like everyone else, so they tend to aspire less to high-level positions in business and government. Also, because they meet such discrimination and resistance, relatively few women will persist in the face of that.
Q4. Why do you think that women are dealt differently (whether they request something or not) at their workplaces than men? And/or: What are the main reasons of the different treatment of the women at the business sector (and is it connected with other social environments that women’s discrimination is observed)?
A: I think that there is discrimination against women in many areas, not just in the business world. Gender is one of the first things that we notice about people and it leads to all kinds of stereotypes and bias. Based on how society views women, we behave in line with both those social norms, and in our own belief systems – which tend to be full of stereotypes and prejudices.
Q5. How would you describe the phrase “hit the ceiling floor”? Is it still present to our contemporary societies?
A: I think you are referring to “the glass ceiling” – the idea that women hit some sort of barrier to reaching the top. Psychologists Alice Eagly and Linda Carli suggest that the glass ceiling is not a good metaphor because it suggests that there’s no way to break through (but there is!). They use the labyrinth metaphor – women have to go through lots of twists and turns and barriers to get to the top. Men have it much easier.
Q6. Are the societies still reproducing a patriarchal role model and if yes, how does this affect the work relations?
A: Although I think this is changing, there is still a strong “patriarchal” sense in business and in other areas. Business is still seen as a “man’s world.” And we behave accordingly. I do think things are changing, but not very rapidly.
Q7. What are the measures that need to be taken, so they will reduce the discrimination/ different treatment between men and women?
A: I think that some of the rules, such as having mandatory seats on boards of directors for women, and different affirmative action programs that promote qualified women, are helping. We also need to increase awareness and combat incorrect and outdated stereotypes about women in the workplace.
A: Q8. Do you think that feminist moves (rallies, demonstrations, protests, etc.) that request equal rights and treatment to women in any aspect of the society can be at any use at the business sector?
Yes, if women do not protest, and if men do not support those protests, then little will be done to change this unequal situation. Protests and rallies help to increase awareness of the problem.
With the interview finished, which I personally found very interesting, and if we take as granted that everything that is mentioned is true and verified, it can be easily understood the length of the gap between genders at the workplace but of course not only there. Inequalities that exist in one field of a society (e.g. business world), have their roots and their growth in every (I could say almost surely) part of the society. We have to figure out that not only we need feminism-no matter how we consider ourselves civilized and developed- but that this is the primary way of reducing and finally wiping out the inequalities and discrimination between genders (not only between the two genders!).
I agree with a lot of things this article mentioned.
Feminisim, even with its current boost in popularity, still has a somewhat negative stigma (which is very unfortunate). Feminism does not only help women, it also helps men and anyone who does not identify as one or the other.
I never thought about the fact that the traditional qualities we want to see in a leader are similar to the traditional male qualities.
As an addition to this article I would recommend that you watch Rachel Bloom’s video “Lady boss” (it on Vanity Fair’s Youtube channel) because it deals with the double standarts women in leading positions face in a humerous way.
I enjoyed reading this article. This was my first time reading about the labyrinth metaphor, which I find much more accurate than the glass ceiling. I find it refreshing when people can see how nuanced the problem of discrimination is. It is more about deep rooted attributions of characteristics than blatant sexism. This subconscious discrimination is much more difficult to become aware of and combat. I like that this article mentions mandatory board positions for women, because I feel like that could be a viable solution to help women navigate the labyrinth. Thank you for sharing!
I really enjoyed reading an honest article about this matter, especially from a man’s point of view who is very aware of the problems and supportive of change and improvement. Most of the articles I have read about feminism come from a commercial point of view and don’t really focus on statistics and studies. This is probably why they are taken less seriously. We need statements like this interview to prove the wrongdoing and motivate more and more people into actively participating in feminist projects. Good job!
This article is rather messy and unprofessional in format and in writing style. There are numerous grammatical errors, questionable stylistic choices, structural issues, and other faulty aspects to the article. Though the take on barriers that women endure in the workplace is pleasant and intriguing, the lack of formality seriously questions the seriousness of it and the importance of the issue. The issues were disheartening since this topic is extremely prevalent and has been long disputed since women began to be accepted into the workforce during the early to mid 20th century. It is questionable as to whether or not the article was proofread, and the author may prosper in the future in having one or more colleagues review the article and assist in correcting grammar, improper sentences, and other issues found in the article. The lack of professionalism when addressing Dr. Riggio should be corrected as well, and the usage of ‘I’ and other first person terms should be lessened to allow for a more professional air to the article. The headline should also be shortened, to capture the reader’s attention. However, the content of the article is very interesting (especially the mentioning of the labyrinth metaphor, which felt like a far more accurate comparison to a woman’s experience in the workplace than other terms I had heard) and provides a fantastic bone structure for writing. If the author were to amend these different issues, the article would be phenomenal.
This was an interesting interview. I cant relate to this because I dont have a job, but I can see what he is talking about with women at my university.
I’m study Engineering in information systems and I can see that there aren’t a lof of female professors in the most technical classes. I have some women teaching basic classes like maths or physics, or others more common like history. But in more complicate or specific subjets there is only male professors. Another thing I noticed is that most of my female professors have a degree on education or other social things, meanwhile the male professors are all of them engineers.
In classroom is the same. My university dictates different engineering and there is sometimes when in a class is three, four girls and thirty guys. But in certain careers are more women, for example, textile engineering and chemical engineering have the most high percent of women.
I dont know if this happen because there are university careers more “girl friendly” and girls at school think some things arent feminine or are boring and dont want to study and work in things like those. Like mechanics is more men work, as how most people see it.
The same happens with some works like kindergarden teachers (at least where I live). If a man want to study that or work because they like children, people look at them as if they are doing something wrong. I hope at one point we all could work and do whatever we like without people judging our ability and being paid the same, with the same respect.
Overall the article was on an extremely relevant topic and I was honestly thrilled to see a man so passionate to find equality in the workplace. Both men and women sometimes either don’t see inequality or don’t experience it themselves so they are under the impression it doesn’t exist for others; an opinion that causes change to stall and misinformation to be passed until nothing is done to solve the issue. It’s very important to note that both men and women are capable of “falling into the stereotypes” as Riggio explains.
I enjoyed the types of questions you asked and the way you attempted to get the interviewee to elaborate on his thoughts. There was a great introduction for Ronald E. Riggio at the beginning; very thorough and the perfect inclusion of why exactly he is qualified to speak on this subject. Be careful, however, when you mention articles or books, there needs to be quotation marks or italicizes depending on the work, and there are a lot of grammar mistakes within your questions that make the article difficult to understand.
There are cited studies in this article that provide factual support to what Riggio is saying, but there are no links or further information to find these studies. The inclusion of said links would elevate this article immensely! I enjoyed your organization of questions and answers as it is extremely easy to navigate the page and catch the reader’s attention. Your conclusion was a fantastic and professional way to end the article, providing your own support for the topic and a call for people to take action.
Great topic, nicely organized. Thank you for posting!
Stereotype threat is all too real, even in 2017. Many people still don’t believe in a wage gap and have tried to “debunk” it, but the reality is many women are afraid to join male-dominated professions, which tend to be higher-paying on average, for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps the most prominent is the fear of failure or ridicule simply for trying to apply in the first place. It’s crazy to think about how far we’ve come in terms of feminism and gender equality, but also how much more we have left to go. Thank you for bringing this up; very thought-provoking read!
Very true! Thanks for sharing!
No problem at all! 🙂
I initially moved right pass this interview without even reading the title. I think it was because it was too long. I’m glad I went back to it as this is an important topic.
There is a typo in the title! It should be either “The barriers that women have to overcome in order to SUCCEED in business” or “The barriers that women have to overcome in order to HAVE SUCCESS in business”.
I find it interesting that in question 2 the words “Assertive, achieving, dominant” are claimed to be male characteristics. That claim ties into many subsequent questions regarding bias. These characteristics are only attributed as male characteristics because of inherent biases towards women. Many women are in fact assertive yet instead of being called assertive they are often called needy or a nag. Every woman is achieving. Every woman shows up and works just as hard as everyone else despite both physical and emotional discomfort from periods. Also, any woman in the work place who has children I would consider to have achieved more than any one else in the same position without children. Achievements are often only considered if they are tangible and monetary but this frankly ignores an entire lifetime of emotional, spiritual, and otherwise nontangible achievements. And lastly, men being dominant is considered a strong attribute but any woman in a dominant position in the work place is often sexualized and told she is trying to be like a man. Women are dominant, ask a husband.
What needs to be done to help get rid of these biases is that both men and women need to recognize, call out, and be held accountable for perpetuating unrealistic and negative stereotypes.
Incredibly though provoking and important work. Thank you for adding a male voice in this conversation because it truly does involve everyone.
Right on Marisa! Thanks for the comment.
This was a great intro into an important topic that needs to be discussed more. I loved that you included a lot of background detail about the man you were interviewing and who he was. And it is really nice to see a man that is concerned about sexism and inequality as well. When men are talking about this issue, too, it makes it more of a whole ‘we’re in this together’ instead of an ‘us against them’ sort of vibe if only women were being interview about this issue.
I also really liked that he talked about how this issue effects both men and women, everyone is subject to prejudice from how we were raised and the culture that surrounds us. It’s important to be aware of this so that we can make changes.
I wish that he had gone into more depth with some of these questions though and elaborated more. There were also quite a few grammatical and spelling errors which could be easily fixed with some editing. But, nonetheless I think this is a great way to get the topic out there and introduce this topic to people to show that it needs more attention. It led to even more questions for me, which I think is great, these things need to be thought about. His reply to the second question where he explained how when people rate leaders they use the descriptors assertive, achieving, dominant (which are generally for men) made me wonder how much of that is because we are used to men being leaders? Culture reflects language and language also reflects culture; everything is very entwined. And why are those the traits that we want in a leader? You would think that empathy and compassion (traditionally feminine traits) would be wanted as well since leaders are people in power that are able to make decisions for other people. I think people would want a leader that is indeed assertive and achieving, but also warm and compassionate. But, being emotional and paying attention to the emotional aspects of life has been deemed bad for leadership. We have just been trained to think of leaders in a certain way and think of certain traits as good and bad.
Besides a few errors, overall this is a great article that begins to discuss a topic that most definitely needs more coverage, and it inspired more curiosity for me about the reasons why women have barriers to overcome in the workplace.
As I read this I couldn’t help but notice some grammatical errors – words and phrases that could’ve been reworded. Nevertheless it is a great interview and with such an interesting point of view. Sexism in the workplace tends to be a controversial issue which is why most people tend to brush it off. However, this is a very real and important issue that many women are facing around the world everyday. Focusing in the United States, a country who believes in equality and freedom is far from truly achieving such a status. Unfortunately racism and sexism are real issues that society is facing everyday, specially women. Earlier this week, I personally stated my opinion over a meme that was created out of an exhibition at the California Science Center. As portrayed by Dr. Gunther von Hagens’ Body Worlds – Pulse is a “convergence of aesthetic anatomy, health and wellness.” The exhibition portrayed the body in proper health and in distress as well as interpreting the human bodies’ vulnerabilities and the challenges it faces in the 21st Century. The goal of this exhibition was to have guests learn about the “wonders of the real human body and marvel at its elegance and complexity.” Which is why when a friend showed me a meme made out of one the exhibits I found it to be disrespectful as this was a human being who had donated their body to science so that others could learn from it. I stated my opinion in a positive manner by saying that this was a real human being and stating the purpose. However, it was taken in a wrong way and the admin of the meme account called me a “hating feminist” for commenting my opinion on the image. This is an example of how women are perceived in various interactions whether it’s at a workplace or on social media women are targeted in a negative way. Stating my opinion on science was not on any level a “hating” comment much less a feminist viewpoint. He concluded this based on the mere fact that I was a women. Assumptions always mislead people and these assumptions are what create these negative stereotypes throughout society. Protests and rallies definitely bring awareness to these issues. Women should be treated with respect and their shouldn’t be discrimination based on gender. Women and men both have the ability to think and process information at the same rate. Furthermore, I recommend the use of organizations that can help further this cause for people who want to be involved. Where exactly can we reach Dr. Ronald Riggio? Maybe include some evidence that demonstrate the correlation between sexism in the workplace and social areas for women. Edit the post due to grammatical issues and word phrasing specifically stating the questions a lot more clearly. Overall I enjoyed your article due to the fact that it can be so relatable to numerous people who have been placed in a similar situation at work, school and/or in a social setting.
As a woman working in a business setting this is a huge eye opener. I work really hard but I do find myself falling short compared to my male coworkers, which makes me feel like I have to work harder.
This is a great article and very informative, but I wish the author would have delved more into some of the questions.
Is the language in describing genders changing? The interviewee states that more women are being accepted into higher roles, it’s slow but it is changing, so are the descriptors changing as well? And in my opinion I do find women to be determined, achieving, and dominate.
I would also like to know some of the other factors that lead to discrimination and his ideas on how to change those.
The labyrinth metaphor is fantastic and I find that to be much better than the “glass ceiling”. It makes me feel like there is change in the workplace. Has this metaphor come about because the views of society are changing?
I also would like to know how experience is playing a role in this, especially with “having mandatory seats on boards of directors for women”? When that is a factor are they looking at experience or are they just looking at gender? And how does that affect the ‘equality in the workplace’ movement?
Other than those questions, this is a wonderful article. Only other thing I would suggest is proofreading.
This was a wonderful interview and it was great to see it from the perspective of a man since I think that some people may dismiss women’s opinions within women’s discrimination as “an angry feminist” which I think would be more powerful to the audience who don’t take women’s opinions as seriously (despite the fact they should be.) who are often the ones causing this stereotypical issue in that men are “assertive” and women are not. Which is something I’m very happy was addressed since stereotypes play a larger part in society than one may think.
I absolutely agree with this interview in that women are very often discriminated because of their gender, or perhaps even the gender they identify with. Which makes me wonder about the experiences pertaining transsexual women? I think it’d be interesting to hear their take on this as well.
I would also like to add the idea of a women’s business suit. Many people would say that a woman in a pants suit would be intimidating. Why? Why would she be any less intimidating in a pencil skirt and blazer?
Throughout the interview, there are a lot of misspelled words and grammatical errors so perhaps be a tad more crucial while going over your work. Maybe even read your sentences aloud to ensure that they make sense. I’d like to also add that maybe add context varying from country to country. Although we can assume that this is the way it is in America, are European societies different? However, I thought the questions were very well thought out – fantastic job!
Being a non-native English speaker, I am aware of the fact that the vocabulary and the grammar used are not in the finest level. I am trying my best to improve every day and comments like these (pointing out my mistakes) are helping very much (could you possibly write down some of the most obvious grammatically mistakes of the article?).
Considering the geographical context, I can answer you that I am writing this article coming from a European background, so it is obvious that (at least) the questions can be easily related not only to American societies and I can tell you from my experience that the answers as well can be fit in the European societies.
Thank you very much for the kind feedback
This was a great interview, as it tackles such an important and relevant problem in our society today.
I totally agree with this interview, especially with the fact that the glass ceiling is not a good metaphor, as it implies that women are destined to observe men rather than achieve their dreams. The labyrinth metaphor is more accurate as women definitely can achieve their goals and achieve high positions in the business world, however unfortunately they have it much harder as they need to go through twists and turns to prove themselves in the oppressive society that we live in.
The measures that need to be taken to reduce discrimination are faultless. However I strongly believe that women are their own worst enemy, as they may give up on their rights and/or criticize other women rather than empowering them. Therefore discrimination awareness is very important.
I personally am a witness of gender discrimination as it is very common in the middle east, where women are treated as second class citizens, with very few job opportunities, and even lower income than men for doing the same exact job.
I hope awareness increases towards this topic, and women grow stronger by each other and by the thousands of inspiring women around the world who broke all stereo types and made the impossible possible.
“A woman is the full circle. Within her is the power to create, nurture and transform.” -Diane Mariechild
This was a wonderful interview. As being a feminist that i am. I totally agree with his take on the “glass-ceiling” idea. In higher level companies , it’s harder for women to get a lead role because they think women don’t have what it takes to break that glass-ceiling. But i know nowadays with all of the rallies and protests about equal rights, things are getting a little better, but not rapidly. Just like he said. I definitely liked reading a male point of view on this. It was a eye opener to learn that the qualities they want to see in a leader are similar to male qualities.
Wonderfully written, I thought this article laid out the questions in a very natural and logical sequence that I truly appreciated. Having this written from a totally male perspective- interviewer and interviewee alike- shows a very insightful look through the masculine lends on topic not as often discussed by the sex.
A point brought up in the piece that I found thought provoking was in response question 4 when Dr. Riggio states ” Gender is one of the first things that we notice about people and it leads to all kinds of stereotypes and bias.” It is both an obvious statement, and one I have very really considered myself prior to this. Their are simply always going to be certain associations you have with ones gender, rather they be personal or social, almost immediately upon seeing them always- for better or worse.
The sentiments held here could also be applied to sexual harassment in the work place very well and could hold some interesting correlations between the two.
Over all very though provoking and a short but highly effective read I would recommend to any interested in climbing the corporate ladder regardless of gender.
Thanks for your thoughts!
I loved how in depth the description of the person being interviewed was. It added a lot of value to the information being displayed, and I appreciated it coming from such an educated source. I like having a face to match the words to, and I enjoy seeing how qualified he truly was in the subject area. Also, I really enjoyed the structure of the entire article, especially with how the questions were laid out and ordered. The numerical listing helps to show the continuation of the conversation, and I found it incredibly easy to follow. The questions were very informative and appropriate to the topic, however, some were harder to understand due to wording. There were some grammar errors throughout, but they’re rather minor, so they were easy to overlook. The responses to all of the questions seemed very educated and gave a sense of confidence in the information being given. Finally, I loved how the author wrapped up the article with that closing statement, it helped contribute to the flow of the article, and I appreciated the last glimpse into the conversation supplied.
I really enjoyed how you introduced the speaker and the way you concluded the article, it was a very nice touch. Although, the answers were short, they were straight to the point and the questions that were asked were well thought out in my opinion. Overall, I really did appreciate this article because it’s such a strong and true topic. I hope one day we can move past the gender roles and being more equal, but from where America was before with slavery and women having no rights at all to now, times have definitely changed immensely. I believe if we do keep fighting as women and have the support of other men, it could help change the world and become equals.
A very wonderful article. Being a woman is not easy in a workforce, and gender discrimination is real. Some people would go their way to deny its existence, but it is there, and it will always be.
Most men are raised in a patriarchal society that not only strips away their good virtues, such patience, but also forces them to view and treat women as weaklings who are not capable of doing what men can actually do.
Women will always be underestimated, in almost everything that we do. But these kind of interviews give me faith in humanity because there are actually men out there who undertand the struggle of women especially in workforce. It’s refreshing to see a man’s perspective on gender discrimination that actually does not devalue the opposite gender.
that was a nice interview, i really enjoyed reading it
Workplace discrimination is a very pervasive problem that tends to be minimized and passively accepted in American culture. Two questions in this article intrigued me. Question two which asks why it is that women are less often promoted to higher positions within a company’s hierarchy, brought to mind a book by Malcolm Gladwell titled, ” David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants. In one chapter of the book the author discusses the differences between tokens, pioneers, and pariahs. Within the framework of Gladwell’s interpretation, I believe that in many industries, particularly within Business, most often those who fall outside of the predominant demographic are oftentimes tokens. These people a positioned such that an organization can feel as though a social obligation has been met. Oftentimes, this leads to only a limited number of positions being filled and those positions cycling through an Affirmative Action hire periodically for aesthetics. It could also be the case that the individual/s that have been positioned as tokens would like to protect their exclusive status, which leads to less opportunity for diversity hires. On the contrary, pioneers often break the glass ceiling. After which, more diversity is seen within a field, as in Biology.
The other question I’d like to address is question 10. The language here is interesting. Dr Riggio states, ” …affirmative action, which promotes qualified women…”. This phrasing in itself is problematic because it is suggestive that Affirmative Action hires may be unqualified, which speaks to a larger stereotype. I wonder how this subtle bias may play out for women of color. I would be interested if Dr. Riggio’s studies also explore the intersectionality between gender and race.
Well, this is good topic to talk about. I agree that most people see woman in bussiness as “bossy” and there are lots of other sterotypes. Living in the small town and the small country, made me realise how people are still holding on patriarchy. Once, my father was even asked why does he pay me a college, when one day I will get marry and leave his house. That was just one of the examples. I think that we need equalism, because people of both sex are slightly slippering in extremism when they defend their opinion.
I have taken a number of courses that covers subjects about women in the workplace such as Employment Law, Employment Discrimination Law, and Women and the Law so this is a topic that I am very passionate about. Like Dr. Riggio mentioned, there is discrimination in the workplace and it is something that cannot be avoided. He mentions how women are less likely to be higher up in the hierarchy than men and this can be directly affected by stereotypes and prejudice about women and gender roles in general for society. There is a famous Supreme Court case, Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, where a woman is denied a position as a shareholder in the company. It turns out that the other people did not believe she was feminine enough and should wear more jewelry and be more “ladylike.” Only 7 out of the 622 partners were women. There is clearly gender and sex discrimination here and this case is now a basis for many cases involving this type of discrimination. This shows that progress has been made but there is still much left to do.
Also, an important point about this case is that men with the same characteristics were seen as charismatic and leader like while Ms. Hopkins was seen as overbearing and aggressive. This clearly shows that due to gender stereotyping, women have a hard time in the workplace because they need to be strong in order to surpass their male colleagues, but are also discriminated against for acting that exact way, and if men act that way, it is completely fine. Of course this does not happen in many places, but it is an inherent bias.
Because this article is about women in business, it makes me wonder if there are similar stereotypes when it comes to women in the sciences. Both are known for being male-dominated fields, so it would be interesting to see if there are differences in the probability of women succeeding in those fields.
This was a great interview, though it was brief. Women are heavily discriminated against in business, as well as the sciences (saw someone mention this in the above comments) and all other areas. I find it so mind-boggling that we are still fighting the fight to be recognized as equals. I agree with Riggio that “updating” the workplace would help the status of women, just try to get rid of the stereotypes and show that we are just as capable as men. This will take a long time but I believe that if women are treated equally and paid equally, society will benefit as a whole.
This article caught my eye because I have been a cook for 3 years, a very male dominated work environment. The glass ceiling idea really resonated with me because it has taken me a while to feel like I am actually being taken seriously at my current job. I still don’t feel like I am entirely “there” yet, but the situation has improved. I still receive compliments that are cringeworthy referring to the idea that I’ve lasted in this field. Things are changing slowly, but it is important that we keep advocating for ourselves. Thank you for acknowledging this topic!