“That’s dumb!” and other things hurting your relationship: An Interview with Dr. Leon F. Seltzer

Dr. Leon F. Seltzer is a published author, well loved professor, and clinical psychologist. His blog, Evolution of the Self, is hugely popular. In his research he’s covered everything from Literature and Psychology to intellectual bullying, though spends much of his time working with couples and helping them through their rough spots with counselling.

We’re incredibly grateful that he agreed to chat with us; read on to hear his insight on what makes a good relationship, as well as his beliefs about intellectual bullying and relationships.

A little about your background to start. You hold doctorates in both English and Psychology. Psych2go is a psychology site, but many of our readers (and writers) are also interested in pursuing English. How interdisciplinary are English and Psychology? What brought you to move from teaching English to creating your own private psychology practice?

When I was an English professor, I actually taught interdisciplinary classes in Literature and Psychology. Many literary works can best be illuminated by taking a psychological approach to them, especially if character analysis is important for grasping the work’s major themes and the character conflicts it dramatizes. I found in teaching such classes that my interest in the psychological aspects of the literary works I was teaching was actually greater than in the literature itself (!). I also found that counseling students in my office about their class work was getting tricky because I could see that their personal issues were interfering with their academic performance. Obviously, I couldn’t be comfortable getting into this with them without having a license in mental health. I’d been telling people that, even though I enjoyed my professional writing for journals and teaching college English and American literature, if I had it to do all over again, I would have majored in psychology and become a clinical psychologist. At one point (apparently having forgotten just how torturous getting my first Ph.D. was!), I realized that I did have it to do over again. And, though I was already tenured, I dared to make the break, and have never looked back. I’m also fortunate that my writing skills translated into my writing directly about topics in psychology, which then led to Psychology Today’s inviting me to blog for them. The 350 or so articles I’ve now written for them (since 2008) have now garnered over 18.5 million views.

You mentioned that a lot of your work has been in couple psychology and relationships. What drew you towards this aspect of psychology?

I’ve always liked to challenge myself. And in general, couples counseling is more challenging (and less convoluted) than doing individual therapy. Most couples reach out to a therapist when there’s already been considerable damage done to their relationship. They come in with lots of (mutual) hostility, ready to raise their voice and criticize the other for anything and everything. Initially, they make the strongest case possible against one another and wait, impatiently, for me to take their side, in hopes that their partner will finally be motivated enough to change. And, by doing so, make them less miserable. I typically side with both parties (or neither of them!) in my efforts to teach them to validate each other’s point of view and empathize with the strong feelings underlying their contrasting viewpoints—which they’re typically not even aware of. They need to learn how to better appreciate and accommodate their differences, many of which are intrinsic to their personality and, realistically, not changeable (like, say, one’s being an extrovert and, futilely, blaming the other for their introversion).

At the outset of counseling, they’ll both demonstrate just how stalemated they are: talking at each other, with neither of them willing to listen to what the other is trying so desperately to communicate to them. I seek to engage them on a totally different level, defining their problems in ways that neither had been able to recognize. And I tend to focus on the feeling and core values underlying what they’re constantly arguing about, as well as their hurts and disappointment, which they’re covering up with defensive anger in order to reduce how vulnerable they’ve come to feel in the relationship. It’s always a challenge to get them out of their vicious disputation cycles, but it’s also richly rewarding when they finally come to grasp, and to place a much higher value on, the other’s thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs.

My goal isn’t merely to help them “salvage” their relationship but (if at all possible) to rebuild it, so that their relationship can experience a new—and much more satisfying—beginning. And I find that once I can help them change the way they perceive each another (always my chief purpose), they’re much better at solving problems they thought might finally be unresolvable. Some individual behavioral change may be required, but what’s most necessary is that: each improve their ability to accept their differences and talk about them in such a way that they can effect compromises with each other– without, that is, feeling they have to compromise themselves in the process. For there can be no viable solutions in situations where they feel they’re being obliged to give up their integrity.

Something that I found interesting was your thoughts on intellectual bullying. For those that don’t know, what is intellectual bullying?

Intellectual bullying is putting another down not by physical abuse or verbally making fun of them, but taking unfair advantage of a superior intellect to make them feel stupid. And it’s every bit as hurtful and psychologically damaging (and sometimes more so) than, say, throwing them into the bushes or relentlessly teasing them about their buck teeth.

Does intellectual bullying present itself in romantic relationships, or just in positions where an intellectual hierarchy already exists (school, research fields, etc)? How does it tie in to emotional abuse?

Intellectual bullying can occur in any context– in the workplace or in the most personal relationships. There are many ways of making someone else feel dumb, and it always takes the form of belittling or shaming—making another person feel defective and “less than.” Further, it’s not to be seen as apart from emotional abuse, for it’s a definite form of such abuse. It’s simply a matter of what in the person is being derided, scorned, or mocked—namely, the adequacy of their intellect.

Intellectually bullying a person greatly offends my sense of justice (not even to mention, kindness and consideratoin), since having high I.Q. is a matter of luck: it’s a gift, not something to hold over someone else’s head. The great majority of people who aren’t of superior intellect are still smart enough. They can manage their affairs and handle the demands of daily life. They can find work that suits them and do well at it. That’s what counts, so that no one should have a complex because their intelligence is only average, or even a little below average.

By the way, intellectual bullying is least likely to occur during the romantic phase of a relationship, because this is the stage when you’re trying to endear yourself to the other person. And, intuitively, we all seem to recognize that criticizing the other person’s intelligence is very likely to turn them off to us. Is intellectual bullying an independent problem, or is it a symptom of another personality disorder (like narcissism)? What’s the best way to mitigate or cure it? Intellectual bullying, per se, isn’t a personality disorder and one can be such a bully independent of any personality disturbance. Obviously, it’s taking an aggressive, bullying stance toward another, and that can show up in all kinds of sarcasm and other passive-aggressive behavior, as well as flat-out insulting the other’s person’s intelligence.

As far as “curing” it, it all depends on whether it was more an act of immaturity than anythingelse. Males, in particular, develop empathy later than do most girls, and kids “kid around” naturally, so that sometimes it may not be that much more than child’s play. Still, many times the intellectual bully has been bullied himself because he’s small, puny, unattractive, or physically uncoordinated. So his way getting back at those who may be teasing him is to use his superior intellect to make them feel as bad as maybe, inside, he does himself. If later in life that individual is still saying degrading things to others to prop up his self-esteem then that person’s underlying self-doubts need to be therapeutically addressed. And this is generally something that’s best done with a professional skilled in such matters.

One of your articles about listening in relationships discusses the difference between taking something in and taking something on. Could you outline this idea for our readers? How might this idea pertain to other relationships (parents, coworkers, etc)?

“Taking in” what another is sharing with you is about not reacting to it, but simply being there for the other person, showing understanding of what’s being said and offering appropriate support. “Taking on” what someone else is telling you is to make the problem your own and suggest solutions that haven’t even been requested; meddling, or immediately relating what’s been shared to your own experience and, in effect, redirecting the spotlight squarely on yourself. That’s hardly good listening, nor is it much evidence that you’re able to be a good, compassionate and caring friend, and simply be there for the other person.

What’s the most common issue you seem to notice in relationships? Is there a fool-proof way to make your relationship happy and healthy?

Couples generally say their problem is communication. But it almost always goes much deeper than that: for instance, an unwillingness to accommodate each other’s differences, placing one’s needs substantially ahead of the other’s, being too possessive or (on the other hand) pushing toward an autonomy that can’t but undermine the connection that’s needed if the other person is to feel securely bonded.

The single best way to create a healthier and happier relationship is to come from your highest, noblest self and learn not only to respect your partner’s differing values and preferences but to mke them just about as important as your own, so it’s not simply a matter of who wins and who loses when your wants and needs diverge. Rather, it’s about finding mutually acceptable solutions that affirm the “workability” of the relationship.

How do anger and trauma affect relationships?

It’s unresolved anger and trauma that are the problem. For anything unresolved from the past inevitably gets repeated– or acted out– in the present. And (destructively) acting something out hardly resolves it; it actually strengthens it. Trauma leaves behind all kinds of emotional residue, and this can “play out” in relationships in ways that seriously undermine and sabotage them.