The performing art of being a couple: an interview with Mark O’Connell
1) You work as a psychotherapist but you’re also an actor. Do you think one field helps you develop the other?
Absolutely. Psychotherapy and acting are similar art forms. They both seek to recognize a life in all of its complexity, and to make meaning of it. They both require rigorous self reflection, emotional accessibility, and most of all the capacity to walk in another person’s shoes.
My experience as an actor prepares me to engage in a collaborative, creative process. To not know who a person is upon the first reading of a script. To not “play the end of the scene,” as we say as actors, but to be present in each moment of the journey. To be constantly curious. To make efforts to empathize with people who are not me -to find those people in me, and to find me in them, but also to be challenged and changed by aspects of them that are not at all like me. Acting also prepares you to be in “scenes” with other people, to be vulnerable and intimate with them, but within clear boundaries.
And without a doubt, I’m a better actor now having been a therapist for so many years. My experience diving into the deep end of myriad, unique lives, has expanded my capacity to identify with a variety of people, and essentially to “be” so many more different versions of myself than I could have possibly been years ago.
2) In your book, for example, you give answers on h
ow to plan and get through the wedding as both. Would you explain?
In writing “Modern Brides & Modern Grooms”, I was interested in the timely question of How do you express yourself authentically -in a wedding, a marriage, a family, and even a country…- and stay connected to other people at the same time? And that is a central question for an actor too. How do I find myself in this character, whose story is not mine? How do I play this scene in a way that expresses myself truthfully, but also makes room for the other actor? How do I say what I want to say in this performance, but make sure the audience is following me as well?
A lot of the dilemmas couples face in wedding planning can be navigated by asking themselves those questions. And so, I show readers how to collaborate, negotiate and survive relational conflicts effectively the way a performing artist does. Not only to decide what color napkins to use for table settings, or the DJ or ice sculpture they want for that one big event, but more significantly how to recognize each other’s emotional needs in every moment of every day. How to make complex decisions involving family, friends, and community. How to include them in your event and in your lives, in a meaningful way that works for everyone. This process of communication and reflection is great preparation for every other major crossroads couples face throughout their lives -from family planning, to the question of where to live, how to host holidays together, how to negotiate sexual needs, and how to support each other in professional and creative endeavors.
Like theater -and a therapy treatment and a life- a wedding is a performing art, and the questions we ask are always more crucial than the answers.
3) Your book has been praised for its inclusivity. It’s clear that you don’t believe in one canon of the “normal” and “perfect” couple. However, do you think there are certain aspects of the married life that repeat themselves in every couple?
I do. And not only in romantic couples, but in any relationship between two people: e.g., friends, siblings, parents and children, roommates, colleagues. I actually hope that couples therapy eventually becomes popular for lots of people in conflict, not just lovers. The root of so many conflicts between two people is the unwillingness, or perhaps inability, to simply let the other person know that you understand how they feel and why they feel that way, whether or not you agree with them. It makes such a difference just to know that your experience is held in another person’s mind, even if they have different opinions than you about certain things. If they are curious about your experience and have made the effort to imagine seeing the world through your eyes, and have taken it upon themselves to let you know this, you are more likely to listen to each other. To take in a different perspective and to mull it over, and perhaps even be influenced and changed by that other perspective.
But there are, certainly, patterns that are specific to romantic pairs. I typically see what I call one “engulfed” person and one “abandoned”, which sounds categorical and reductive, but it’s really not. It has much much less to do with external qualities such as gender, physicality, or personality, and more to do with the very particular ways each of us has learned to attach emotionally to partners. We choose complimentary people as lovers, who remind us of our primary caretakers, which is exciting at first, but quickly becomes frustrating.
So a lot of the work in 
couples therapy is to bring all this to the surface so that each partner can understand better their own specific expectations of the other person, to verbalize where they’re coming from, and also to listen listen listen to the other person’s specific experience at the same time. I always remind couples that one of them sees the sky as yellow and the other sees it as pink. Neither sees a blue sky. Neither is right or wrong, but they both have to recognize that the sky is different for each of them in order to move through any of their conflicts.
4) You mention in your latest article for Psychology Today the normal stages of development by Erik Erikson. Do you think these stages are still (or have ever been) “normal” in the modern world?
I think Erikson’s stages are incredibly useful as a reference when we think about the various ways each of us functions in relationships, particularly when we consider how that is informed by our experiences in childhood and adolescence. So much of my work as a therapist is to help people repair the relational ruptures that occurred during those formative years, when they may not have learned to truly trust another person, and never felt secure enough to take risks and discover their full potential as social beings.
However, as I alluded to in the article (which I first wrote for Psychotherapy.net), those stages can get in our heads, like any other socially expected milestone, and make us feel like we’ve failed at life -if we don’t marry by a certain age, for example; or if our career has not become OBVIOUSLY successful -to our parents, our friends, and social media followers- by a certain age; or if we don’t have kids, etc. etc. I think that as a culture we are finding more breathing room, for all of us really, to live meaningful and fulfilling lives that don’t necessarily follow a strict, traditional, expected path, or normative stages.
5) Do you think these milestones have a way of making us feel better because they are what society expects from us?
Yes, they can. Until they don’t. Until we realize that our lives don’t fit neatly into boxes of someone else’s making. We recognize this more and more as we grow.
6) How has y
our personal life experience and your professional career as a psychotherapist changed your vision about these “normal stages of life”?
Well I was never on a normative path. I was a gender nonconforming proto-gay boy from the start, and my earliest memories include adults being uncomfortable with me. Fortunately my parents did their best to help me be myself, and bought me the unicorns and Missy Piggy dolls I asked for, but even so, the message that I was “different” reached me again and again from family, from school, and the community in which I lived. I learned early on that the glass slipper was never going to fit, and that my options were to torture myself by cutting off my heels and toes, or to accept that the Prince of “normal” was never gonna choose me. That I would never be able to successfully hide inside the “normal” closet, and I’d have to find my own ways to be happy. Now, that wisdom came from a lot of trial and error, and painfully mortifying attempts to “fit in” and actively hating myself, especially during my early adolescence. But, painful as it was, that experience forced me to take my own side, and to be awake at the wheel of my life. If I was going to truly exist in the world, I would have to be attentive to my needs, to advocate for myself, to ruffle some feathers by default, and to carve out space to live and love, like anyone else.
That experience taught me that each individual person’s timeline is different, and we often do ourselves a disservice by thinking about where we “should” be in terms of “normal life stages.” I was WAY behind my peers in school in terms of being able to openly express and share sexual and romantic desires and interests, for example, and that’s a huge part of one’s development. But being necessarily internal and in my head, and being bullied at school, led me to go to college early, to escape, and so I achieved higher education goals well before most people my age typically do. So I was behind in some ways, ahead in others, and ultimately I found my own way to live an integrated life.
And the privilege of being a therapist, and getting to know the interior of so many unique people, continues to teach me how each of us truly must find our own way, in our own time, at our own pace.
7) What motivated you to become a psychothera
pist?
The same thing that motivated me to be an actor: an endless interest in people. Everything about people interests me. Every little detail. Their voices, mannerisms, preferences, favorite movies or bits of poetry, their daydreams, heartbreak, worries, hangups, the random sound bites that stick in their heads.
Clients occasionally tell me they fear they’re not interesting enough for me, or that I might get bored if they talk freely about what’s actually on their mind. And I always respond with the truth, which is that as long as it’s true, I’ll never get bored. The only thing I ever find boring -in art or in life- is when someone is lying or covering something, up. Boredom is usually my first clue that something’s not being fully expressed. And even then, I’m interested in the fact that something’s boring me and I want to know why that is, what’s happening within the person to make that happen. I’m endlessly interested in how each person uniquely expresses her or himself. So even when I was in grad school for acting, I knew I would one day be a therapist, because I knew I loved to listen. Simply listening to another person, really listening to them, is an exquisitely beautiful, powerful and transformative thing.
I’ll never forget one night in college, I was at a frat party, and a sweet, bookish girl came over to talk to me -recognizing a kindred misfit in me, I suppose. She knew I did theater at the school and asked me how she could get involved, and told me why she wanted to give it a try even though she’d never been on stage before, and I really enjoyed listening to her story. I don’t remember saying much, but as we parted she said, “Thank you for talking to me. You made me feel so much better about life.” And I thought, wow, if I could help someone feel better about being alive, just by listening to them -with hooting and hollering and keg stands in the background- I should probably take that as a sign. So, I guess my therapy calling happened in the most ironic place possible for a boy who collected unicorns as a kid: a rough-and-tumble, Road-House-style, frat party.
8) What advice would you give to all the young millennial couples out there?
Put the phone down. Look your partner in the eye, and listen to her or him. Really listen. And share something true about yourself, in a complete thought, in a complete sentence, without looking at your phone. And then listen some more. (Also, watch “Black Mirror,” and learn from it…).
Be mindful of screens and how they function in your life; how they steal you away from your loved ones. Notice your tendencies to avoid and escape human-to-human contact or conflict, by losing yourselves in your screens. It’s becoming easier and easier to escape from each other with each new day, each new device, and each new app.
Life is short and messy, and it never gets better than the relationships we are able to have, to hold, and to grow. By which I mean real relationships: the ones, that remain durable when we are face-to-face. One more thing: Psychotherapy can be a great dress rehearsal to improve your relationships in real life.
This interview was very well written, the questions were meaningful and plentiful, covering a broad range of issues surrounding the topic as well as actually addressing the topic of discussion. I liked that the author asked for the therapist’s advice near the end.
I really enjoyed reading this interview and the takeaway advice about the importance of listening for genuine human connection. The questions flowed well and seem well researched beforehand.
I enjoyed reading Mr. O’Connell’s answers, and knowing what motivated him to become a psychotherapist makes me feel more appreciative about his work. It’s a interesting comparison to compare the acting roles in theater to the the social roles we play in society and in our relationships. With roles there are expectations and sometimes restrictions on what and is and isn’t approved of by society based on the idea of what is normal.
And this can sometimes be a good and bad thing with relationships, because understanding the someone also includes understanding what they want and expect out of their partner.
This was an interesting read, as Mark is an actor and a psychotherapist. In society, some people put up “masks” to hide what they are really like in order to get along with people. I feel like this is relatable in an actor situation, as when one is acting, you are pretending to be someone you are not.
I feel like he was a great choice for being interviewed, as he does not follow the norm and we should strive to be more inclusive, as he is. Because of that experience, I think it helped a lot with his writing and career. I LOVED the fact that his book was praised for its inclusivity. Every couple is different and I have faced and heard about many relationships — each very different — some volatile, some overly affectionate. We learn sometimes through these experiences what we don’t want in a relationship.
Additionally, I like that he talks about “any relationship” as his target audience is not only people in relationships, but also people who have not been in a relationship and people that have been. Communication is extremely important in any relationship.
In all I think he is a great role model and I might even pick up the book he wrote!
Thank you for the great read.
This interview honestly makes me relate. I’m always on my phone and never really look at my lover in the eye and talk about what goes on. I’ve always been scared to go to therapy in fear of being “uninteresting” to them and not get my problems resolved. Lately I’ve been learning to not use my phone as a coping mechanism and actually talk to my love about my issues instead of bottling it up and being scared. It makes me glad that someone understands with advice for those in need.
Such a great read! Truly inspired by how his love for acting connected him to psychology. And he’s right, listening is so important yet a skill most do not have. We tend to listen with the intent to respond instead of just to hear what the person is truly saying. Someone having all of the answers doesn’t compare to the feeling you get when you feel heard. Great interview!
I found this article to be extremely interesting and I resonated alot with what Mr. O’Connell had to say. As an actor, you get an interesting look into a person because you have to step into their shoes in order to play a role. His work as a psychotherapist enhances this ability and it seems that he can see people in a 3 dimensional spectrum.
I agree with him that there is no perfect or normal couple. This comes with the fact that each person is different and the way that we interact with one another changes based on who is put together. The standards that he mentioned for good communicative couples hold factual evidence in every day life and may even be something we see on a daily basis.
I think an interesting question to pose would have been how the dynamics of interpersonal relationships change with the introduction of beyond-the-norm aspect? For example, if a monogamous person were to enter a relationship with a polyamorous person and how his/her friends would take the news.
Coming from the perspective of a bisexual female who has a penchant for theater, I am glad to find an article that gives insight to making the dynamics of nonconforming relationships work. Bonus points to relating it to acting.
However, reading the title of the article made me expect something related to public displays of affection, and I would suggest changing the title to fit it better to the crux of the interview. Consider: The art of healthy communication as a couple. Or something along those lines.
Good job with the questions, by the way. They were clear enough to make O’Connell understand what kind of answer you’re expecting to get, but open-ended enough to make him elaborate further.
My family is very traditionalist which made this article resonate with me personally. As much as I love them, and even feel the urge myself to conform to their traditionalist expectations, I feel like what they push at times is wrong.
Like O’Connell said, each individual is pressured to be this person who must seek education, get a job and become decently well off, get married, and have children so that the cycle continues. Moving away from these constructs can make more people happier, as they will no longer feel like something is wrong with them if they do not fit into the cookie cutter molds society presses onto us. How do we make sure more people know they do not need to follow this pattern society expects us to follow?
Something I wish to bring up is the reference to Erickson’s stages – maybe explain what they are? After mentioning them I think I was able to inference however it would be nice if it were explained more. Otherwise, I loved the read and the start of the article establishing O’Connell’s credibility! Really thought provoking and assuring!
Really well written article and I love O’Connell’s perspective on psychotherapy. It’s true what he mentioned about the power of just listening. I’m a listener, not a talker myself, but at the end of a conversation with a distraught or upset friend or co-worker, they always thank me for listening. I think we take that for granted, we wanna talk and be heard but not to many people really listen. I feel language, talking and listening in all sorts of human relationships is really important, especially at a time like this in our political atmosphere.
To the author, Gabriela Morales, I loved your questions and the way your wrote about this topic, I have an idea though to make this article more accessible. Any psych major would know Erick Ericksen or what Psychotherapy is, but towards non-psych people, those terms may be leave them missing the impactfulness of this piece. Perhaps in the future you may include questions towards the interviewee to explain psychology concepts. Wonderful piece and such an poignant topic.
O’Connell’s advice on listening is a sound one. Many people don’t seem to want to listen, especially when it comes to social media. People like to talk over one another without communicating. I have always thought listening was the first step to understanding anything, so I agree wholeheartedly with what O’Connell had to say.
I really do wish he covered more on the “engulfed” and “abandoned” concept. It seems an interesting way to describe a couple, especially because psychology and philosophy go hand in hand sometimes. I enjoyed O’Connell’s personal experiences and what made him pursue psychotherapy because he gives some voice to a side of society that still struggles to be noticed.
I loved this interview! It was written very well and Mark O’Connell really went into depth with the topics, and I loved reading it. Mark O’Connell’s personality to listen to people is very inspiring and I feel like what he does is something I am wanting to do. I am going to start my Graduate course in Counselling and Psychotherapy next month and I’m excited, because just like Mark I am a listener and I love exploring people.
Before reading this interview, I had never considered how acting and psychotherapy could go hand in hand. Now that I’ve heard Mark’s thoughts and his experiences, it makes a lot of sense to me. Both professions involve understanding people and figuring out what makes an individual unique, essentially putting yourself in another’s shoes. The key difference between these two professions, in my opinion, is what you do with the information you gather on a person; however, the initial steps are the same and I understand how these professions are similar now.
I particularly enjoyed reading Mark’s thoughts on the stages of life and relationships. I agree that these stages are not boxes we fit into, but rather like a map, where you can take one route and someone else could take a different route and that’s okay. You’ll still end up where you need to be. I relate to his story of growing up and not fitting in with his classmates and the same “boxes” of life stages they did. I am transgender and pansexual, so I’ve had a hard time expressing myself because I found it hard to relate to others. But this idea of not following a set path is comforting to me, and I appreciate learning that others like Mark share my views on life stages.
I know this interview mentioned in the beginning that Mark has written a book on relationships, particularly ones that are not considered “normal”, including LGBT+ relationships. My question for Mark would be in your work as a psychotherapist, how has working with LGBT+ couples been different from a heterosexual relationship? How is it similar? Have you had to change how you work with LGBT+ couples as compared to heterosexual couples?
During most of my high school experience, I was an actor. Now, I am working towards an advanced degree in psychology. I feel as though I can relate, to a certain degree, with the person being interviewed. One thing that acting allowed me to do was escape the world and be someone else. Of course, I was being given a character to portray, but I was able to be someone else for a moment, and enjoy it. With regards to acting and psychology, one has to wonder if it is healthy to possess these two skills? Psychology requires us to exhibit our true selves and have a sense of who that self is. Acting allows us to let go of that self and portray a new self. Could that, in essence, be dangerous? Also, reading about how communication is the key behind many successes in relationships and the development of openness helps keep communication open between two people that allows them to talk about feelings and not worry about keeping things from each other. Rather than engulfed or abandoned personality types, what if we think about it in the traditional type of reacher or settler? Would those titles be too harsh? It seems as though engulfed seems more like clingy and abandoned appears to be more like someone who has lost all emotional well-being and has become abandoned to the sense they might not be well enough to handle a relationship. I also find it interesting to reference Erikson. Too often, we find that we should fit into a certain mold that society has placed for us. If we don’t meet that threshold, what happens? Do we give up? Do we allow ourselves to be overcome by obsession to complete these stages? It could be said that one who has a true sense of self would realize that they don’t necessarily fit into a mold and can find their own path, but not everyone is the same. The fact that the author provided his own backstory to this particular topic proves how powerful the struggle to be “normal” can be. I would also have to share sentiments with the author and the powerful allure that boredom has on me. I could find something boring, but it will most certainly spark my interest and make me want to learn more.
Overall, this was an article worth reading. It intrigued me and helped me question many things about myself and my perception of the things around me, including my relationship. I truly enjoyed reading this article. Thank you for posting and sharing!
This article is phenomenal! The questions asked helped me know the interviewee better and it flowed really well. The next question would tie into the one before.
This article helped me take a look at my life and my realtionships and it felt like the interviewee was talking to me.
It is wondeful to know that there are other people out there that think like me